Tulpa.info - guide-discussion

The idea of "I have to create a tulpa the way other people have done it" is the actual problem. People need to be taught that they can write their own system narrative that suits them.

They need to get their basic tulpamancy ideas from somewhere, and you can't grow if you don't bother to think in the first place. I started off taking a lot of the Felights ideas and preaching those. I relatively quickly started butting heads with them on almost everything and after no longer being friends I have rejected most of what I learned from them and what I didn't reject I built on and created my own philosophy. A lot of the ideas I have I can trace back to other people, but those ideas won't look exactly like their ideas.

And - through the guide - it should be presented as fact - because that presentation is what makes it work- you treat it as fact

I don't really agree with this. I think a third person tone is fine, but going out of your way to say this is exactly how tulpamancy works is silly. I am completely capable of learning about parallel processing while having a lot of doubt about it for instance. === (edited)

6:04 PM

Y'know I increasingly feel like tulpamancy guides should have a preface about hypnosis and suggestion lol.

Write an article about it, if it's really popular it could be the next "hour counts are bad" piece.

On mandatory dinner table guides

I have honestly warmed up to the idea that those sorts of guides should stay. I think the only actually problematic guides are ones that try to pull off arm chair medicine, promote really obviously unhealthy mindsets, or claim that their guide is the only correct guide

Reguile

As for health - I tend to take a view that health depends way more on the person than the guides they read. I remember seeing certain individuals coming from the tulpa community, clearly unhealthy and detached, getting and participating in others processes, and suddenly a few days later those other communities were terrified that they were making people unhealthy. They were fine, though, and worried over nothing. There were also about a half billion signs the person they were dealing with was detached and dangerous-to-themselves, but those signs were ignored or not noticed. I'm learning that's true in 90% of cases - you need good people more than you need good processes. Focus hard on having good, trustworthy individuals, and you won't have to worry about keeping them inside tiny walls and worried they'll stick knives in electrical outlets. (edited)

Even if 10% of mancers prone to negative experiences have a negative output from being fed the wrong information, that's still on us. Just because someone comes here vulnerable doesn't mean you can discount the damage of giving them incomplete information which leads them to a bad mindset.

6:08 PM

There will be individuals who respond negatively because they were going to respond negatively, but saying that all people fall into that category when is blatantly conjecture.

6:09 PM

I consider myself such an example, given that I struggled for a year to make tulpamancy work. There was nothing inherent about that experience, but it was built on an earlier idea of tulpamancy as a difficult, long, meditative process. (edited)

I thought about writing an anxiety guide for tulpamancy until I realized it was a bad idea. Most of the ideas I had were more focused on managing anxiety, and it started to feel like I was giving therapy advice. The people who are the most suggestive are likely struggling with a mental health issue, and they need to see a doctor, not a tulpamancer.

Quite. There's only two things that really need said about anxiety: If you're anxious, tulpamancy is going to suck ass, don't do it until you get that shit under the control. And two, if you can't get it under control yourself, you need to seek a therapist.

I hope we're not seriously going down the route of "It's fine if people are hurt by my guide because they probably would have been hurt by something else anyway". If you want to write about your subjective experiences, write a report. If you want to include your subjective experiences as part of a guide, clearly label them as subjective. Your stylistic preferences are not justification enough to fail to inform beginners about the basics of tulpamancy.

7:19 PM

@A long kiss goodnight I genuinely can't tell if you agree or disagree with me

I hope we're not seriously going down the route of "It's fine if people are hurt by my guide because they probably would have been hurt by something else anyway".

I do believe a guide author should take some responsibility for what ideas they put out there, but I think we disagree on how much responsibility. I think a guide author should not be careless about putting in ideas that overall seem like really bad ideas like violent dissipation, teaching that you have no control over your own mind, you can only have a tulpa if you drink orange juice, etc. I think if you cut out the personal experiences, you end up with at best an analysis of someone else's experience and at worst nothing. I don't think guides are inherently bad for presenting information as if they were an expert on what they're talking about- the truth is they somewhat are because they know enough about the content to get the idea down in the first place. Obviously this expertise can and should be criticized and they're not going to get everything right, but I think that has to do with the fact we know very little about the subject of tulpamancy in general and less that guide authors have secret knowledge they're withholding to manipulate people or out of carelessness.

Ranger I genuinely can't tell if you agree or disagree with me

The point I was trying to make is I think reading guides and learning about other people's experiences was what lead me to developing my own ideas. I read the Felight's guide on how to possess, Gray read anti-parroting and visualization guides, I argued with people about what I thought and changed my views based on the feedback I got. I think guides offer that as an accessible place to start that process, especially for those who are nervous to talk to others online. (edited)

@A long kiss goodnight If subjective experiences are included in a guide, do you think they should be labelled as such?

I assume it's a given to begin with. I swear there's a resource that clearly states this perspective on guides, let me go try to find it

...huh, I thought it was posted explicitly somewhere. Maybe I was conflated Goopi's warning about hour counts with general guide precautions. In general people are pretty good about warning people not to take guides too literally, there's even a meme dedicated to the idea: https://community.tulpa.info/topic/732-tulpainfo-humour/?do=findComment&comment=30864 However, I'm surprised there isn't a dedicated article or anything that plainly states this. It wouldn't hurt to have that, I could directly add a note to the guide boards and the guide list

8:00 PM

Eh... It might be better to have a page or two on "How to use guides" and then link to that

That's not what I asked, Ranger.

8:02 PM

I asked you "If subjective experiences are included in a guide, do you think they should be labelled as such?"

8:03 PM

...and I mean labelled as such in the guide.

In general, I don't think it's necessary to explicitly label what your views are or are not. I think it makes more sense to give credit to other people for their ideas than to say "I think this and I think that". I can't think of an example off the top of my head aside from a perspective shift (like a forward), or if you're writing about other people's experiences and want to clarify your own. There could be other reasons, but even in a progress report, you don't need to clarify "I believe x" every time you write something. Instead, I want to teach that it's not wise to take guides as gospel and you're allowed to veer off and ignore the writer if you come across something you don't want to do or don't think applies to you.

Is that a no, then?

I don't think it makes sense to give a direct yes or no because specifying what is your opinion or not in a guide can help or hurt a guide depending on the context. I believe emphasizing what is and isn't your opinion has pros and cons depending on the context. For example, saying "I believe xyz" and "In my opinion" every other sentence can be repetitive and distracting, or unwanted if the guide is written in third person.

Instead, I want to teach that it's not wise to take guides as gospel and you're allowed to veer off and ignore the writer if you come across something you don't want to do or don't think applies to you.

Of course, people reading all these guide are usually equipped with enough knowledge and critical thinking abilities to make a valuable decision in what applies to them and are not being influenced at all by guides themselves in what they want.

A long kiss goodnight

I don't think it makes sense to give a direct yes or no because specifying what is your opinion or not in a guide can help or hurt a guide depending on the context. I believe emphasizing what is and isn't your opinion has pros and cons depending on the context. For example, saying "I believe xyz" and "In my opinion" every other sentence can be repetitive and distracting, or unwanted if the guide is written in third person.

You could specify what parts are opinion in a foreword, rather than continuously stating "I think". What do you think about that idea?

That's all very well and good for someone who interacts with the community but you just can't presume that.

8:32 PM

It's far more likely the vast majority of the people who read the guides only read the guides. I'm not even sure it's wise to presume if they hit a major obstacle that they would actually seek help.

4

Ale𝕏andra 🍄🐈

You could specify what parts are opinion in a foreword, rather than continuously stating "I think". What do you think about that idea?

Gray somewhat does that in his guide- I'm curious if you think he did a good job or not: https://community.tulpa.info/topic/16772-how-to-refocus-on-your-wonderland/

A long kiss goodnight

I don't think it makes sense to give a direct yes or no because specifying what is your opinion or not in a guide can help or hurt a guide depending on the context. I believe emphasizing what is and isn't your opinion has pros and cons depending on the context. For example, saying "I believe xyz" and "In my opinion" every other sentence can be repetitive and distracting, or unwanted if the guide is written in third person.

you gave an example of evidence that shows you disagree. can you give an example of evidence that shows you agree with specifying what is and is not an opinion? (edited)

bemacbe

you gave an example of evidence that shows you disagree. can you give an example of evidence that shows you agree with specifying what is and is not an opinion? (edited)

The thing that came to mind for me was a perspective shift I made while working on one of the drafts for my possession guide. However, I think a sudden switch from 3rd person to 1st isn't good and I need to better organize my guide. Otherwise, I can't think of an example other than Gray's guide off the top of my head where a tone shift or suddenly clarifying your perspective is helpful for the guide. If you generally want to write a guide, it's usually best to stick to 2nd person.

A long kiss goodnight

Gray somewhat does that in his guide- I'm curious if you think he did a good job or not: https://community.tulpa.info/topic/16772-how-to-refocus-on-your-wonderland/

tbh I can't see an example of that anywhere, am I missing it?

Gray explains his motivation for writing the guide in the Preface

8:39 PM

After that, he switches from 1st to 2nd person

8:40 PM

While I will briefly explain this skill, these guides explain this skill in more detail. ...Or randomly goes back to 1st I guess.

It's clear from the context of that guide that it's just one particular method, so it seems fine.

8:42 PM

so would you make it clear in your walk-in guide which bits are your own subjective experiences? Or are you just going to assume that anyone reading the walk-in guide has a broad enough knowledge of other tulpa resources?

(where's the link to the walk-in guide?)

bemacbe

(where's the link to the walk-in guide?)

not written yet (edited)

We're probably jumping the gun on the guide-judgement here on that note.

Ale𝕏andra 🍄🐈

not written yet (edited)

ah ok

We can probably wait until we have at least a draft until we CRITICALLY DEVASTATE IT

Aside from a brief blurb in the beginning, I don't want to ramble too much about what I think about stuff. I can link the "advanced" article after I finish it if they want to learn more, but I don't think that would be very helpful because they're not my target audience anymore.

like the GAT, y'know.

Zen

We can probably wait until we have at least a draft until we CRITICALLY DEVASTATE IT

I agree. I think the best solution to this would be if the guide, before being published, is peer reviewed and checked over for anything that would potentially cause problems for newcoming tulpamancers.

We're arguing in hypotheticals at the moment. Which is a bit disingenuous.

until then tho there's not a lot we can do to say if it's one way or another

A long kiss goodnight

Aside from a brief blurb in the beginning, I don't want to ramble too much about what I think about stuff. I can link the "advanced" article after I finish it if they want to learn more, but I don't think that would be very helpful because they're not my target audience anymore.

so does that mean you're not going to include any of your subjective experience, or does that mean you're going to include a little bit but not label it, or...? I'm not trying to be disingenuous, I just don't think that my worries have been understood.

8:49 PM

We're gonna stop posting in here tho. We've tried to make our concerns clear, we're genuinely worried, but I just don't think we're managing to communicate.

You're asking about Ranger's writing style before she's even put proverbial pen to paper. They understand the risks and oversights are to be expected on any document. I've made my abstract viewpoint clear. Contextually for any number of reasons the document itself might never transgress it or it might be egregious about doing so. But we don't know yet.

8:50 PM

It might always be clear that Ranger's experiences are subjective just because of the way she writes. We literally don't know yet.

I agree with Zen and Bem, I think it would be helpful if you had a draft in your hands. After linking Gray's guide, I don't think I quite understand your position and it's possible we're both making assumptions that aren't relevant.

like the GAT, y'know.

I expect no less from you. Be prepared to pour 10 hours into your review.

A teaching switching guide from someone who doesn't know how to switch, teach, or teach switching

8:51 PM

you can do it now, but barely understand the fundamentals of it

sh

A teaching switching guide from someone who doesn't know how to switch, teach, or teach switching

sounds right up my alley

@A long kiss goodnight

After linking Gray's guide, I don't think I quite understand your position and it's possible we're both making assumptions that aren't relevant.

Well yeah this is why I think it's a waste of time for me to continue posting for now.

bemacbe

sounds right up my alley

that's a funny joke

sh

that's a funny joke

i'm hilarious

I am the GAT.gif

bemacbe

i'm hilarious

yes

sh

yes

so we're in agreement then

zenzen you can be my gat

what's a cat

8:53 PM

gat

bern you're weird rn

8:53 PM

did you take orange juice

8:53 PM

you're speaking weird

GAT is short for Guide Approval Team. It has had its doors closed and there is currently no guide curation system for guides at this time (edited)

oh i see

Wait you didn't know that? I thought you was older than me.

sh

did you take orange juice

I haven't eaten or drinken anything but water today

There was a whole backlash and everything.

hmm?

8:55 PM

Did GAT change at all since 2013?

bemacbe

I haven't eaten or drinken anything but water today

I should go do that actually

what did i miss

By the way wasn't there supposed to be like a five-star or like-based rating system implemented?

See this thread for context: https://community.tulpa.info/topic/16757-community-feedback-survey/

Wasn't that like a year ago?

That was wanted, but we realized there wasn't a real good way to implement one. The 5 star system Invision has doesn't work and there isn't even a plug-in for one

That won't do. Clearly the moderators should unanimously grant me emergency GAT powers.

8:59 PM

I will use them responsibly. Of course.

8:59 PM

smiles

Zen

That won't do. Clearly the moderators should unanimously grant me emergency GAT powers.

Once you get dictator powers can I be your right hand man who gets all the power once you die of perfectly natural causes?

No Brutus/Vader.

9:01 PM

Get outta here. I ain't fallin' for that twice. That's why I made a tulpa! Who absolutely won't betray and dissipate me at the first chance he gets!

I actually used to be the last GAT manager and I can tell you... it's less fun than you might think (edited)

Why's that?

First rule of being manager- you don't have more voting power than the other members. You're more the laison for the GAT and expected to organize things

Of course, but that's why you should grant me emergency and total GAT powers. Where I have unassailable authority over the judgement of all guides.

9:06 PM

Or alternatively, give me the authority to construct a GAT

9:06 PM

then I just construct a shadow GAT and fill it with my own tulpas.

People just simply didn't want to do it

9:07 PM

The more complicated things become the more people didn't want to do it

blinks

9:07 PM

I don't understand people.

the GAT has been in a constitutional crisis for years

asmask was on the original GAT

what

Yeah lmfao

9:11 PM

Or maybe not the founding

Unpaid work and everyone hates you for it

Yuka

Unpaid work and everyone hates you for it

yes i do

Yuka

Unpaid work and everyone hates you for it

That unironically sounds like my fetish